Vegan vs. Omnivore: The Debate (Breakdown of Kahn & Kresser)

This is a chronological breakdown of the Joe
Rogan Experience #1175 – with Dr. Joel Kahn and Chris Kresser, debating on whether a whole
foods based vegan diet or a whole foods based omnivore diet is better.  I’ll lay out
their arguments and add a little commentary where relevant. At the end I’ll briefly
talk about what I think each side could have done better. First here’s a list of the
topics we’ll look at: The discussion starts with introductions.
Dr. Joel Kahn MD is a holistic cardiologist and 42 year vegan.Chris Kresser has a Masters
in Science and is the co-director of the California Center for Functional Medicine. He was once
a vegan, but switched to a whole foods omnivore diet. Around the 6 minute mark, they jump into discussing
the problems with using epidemiology to make conclusions about nutrition. “Epidemiology, observational studies, are
studies that look at a certain group of people… say we take a group and we look and see how
much saturated fat are they eating – we separate them into, y’know, low consumption, medium
consumption, high consumption… we might then look 20 years later and see how many
people had heart attacks and died…” The criticisms mentioned were that
・Epidemiology assumes that there is one diet for everyone. ・It reduces everything
down to components without looking at the whole picture. For example if a study is looking
at the effects of high fat diets, it wouldn’t differentiate between a high fat dominoes
pizza and snickers bar diet and a carefully formed whole foods diet that is packed with
coconut oil and avocados. Dr. Kahn does say that epidemiology studies
are at least useful for testing hypotheses.  “You can test a hypothesis … what happens
if … our data, may be crappy, but it’s still data and it allows you to go further with
100,000 people, 50,000 people, 500,000 people” Kresser then goes on to explain three more
problems with epidemiology: “I think there’s huge problems with epidemiology.” ・The data are only as good as the tool used
to collect them. The tool very commonly used for epidemiology studies is a questionnaire,
which is not reliable simply because people are not good at precisely remembering what
they ate. An example of this problem is the recent study on low carb diets which relied
on a questionnaire like this one asking participants things like “How many of these foods did
you eat per month over the past year?” My hat is off to you if you can remember your
precise monthly consumption of bananas, broccoli and chicken for all of last year. The second point is the healthy user bias
which says that people who are likely to do a vegetarian diet, which is thought to be
healthy, are also likely to do several other things that are thought to be healthy like
not smoke or get plenty of exercise. “Well, red meat has been perceived as unhealthy
for a long time. In those observational studies, the people who eat more red meat are also
smoking more, they’re eating less fewer fruits and vegetables… they have higher body mass
index, they’re less physically active. So how do you know that it’s the red meat…
that’s causing the problem and not those other things? You don’t.” The third point is that the relative risks
in nutrition derived from epidemiology research are so low that they are indistinguishable
from chance. “So, in fields outside of nutrition and
epidemiology, nobody would consider an increase in risk less than %100 – a doubling, to be
really worth paying attention to. The observational studies that Joel was referring to that confirmed
that cigarette smoking led to lung cancer… that showed between a 1000 and 3000 percent
increase in lung cancer in smokers. Okay? The IARC, the WHO report that suggested that
processed red meat is a carcinogen – that was 18 percent increase” “Lot of respect and agreement, but if we throw
epidemiology out-” “I’m not suggesting that by the way.”
“I know I know, if we throw epidemiology away, we’ve thrown away about 80% of nutrition knowledge,
because that is the most common kind of study. And that still leaves us with basic science,
it leaves us with randomized clinical trials which are very hard in nutrition, and they’re
very expensive. And it finally leaves us with studying old healthy people – centenarian
studies.” Around the 34 minute mark, the conversation
shifts to meat. Kresser mentions that the proposed mechanisms thought to be behind processed
meat causing cancer are N-nitroso compounds, heme iron, TMAO and Neu5GC and heterocyclic
amines formed from cooking. He then points out that context is very important: For example,
eating a hot dog is very different from eating a hotdog with Kale. vegetables reduce levels of N-nitroso compounds
and heme iron, and cruciferous vegetables reduce heterocyclic amines. Neu5Gc wasn’t
addressed but TMAO is discussed later in the debate. Kahn agrees that if people eat meat it should
be with vegetables. “Next time you eat meat, get a salad, next
time you eat meat, order broccoli. Next time you have bacon, get a, y’know, sliced tomatoes.
You will actually improve your health.” “they took healthy volunteers, they took them
down to the hospital cafeteria and they fed them a hospital burger, and they were measuring
on their arm how their arteries functioned. Artery function goes down in 3 hours when
you eat a hospital burger. They took the same group a week later, they had them eat the
same burger with a big salad. They didn’t see that finding.” After this, from about the 40 minute mark
and for the next hour and twenty minutes, they had a meandering discussion on whether
saturated fat causes heart disease. Dr. Kahn illustrates his position on saturated fat
with five points, starting with some history: “…Ancel Keys suggested dietary fat might
be a factor – it was a hypothesis, it was early stage epidemiology, doesn’t prove anything.
He went out and did studies, other people did studies and the idea transitioned, the
focus went on saturated fat in food which is basically chicken, red meat, pizza and
subsequently enough data accumulated that guidelines started to suggest – we have this
huge problem with heart disease, we should limit saturated fat in the diet. And that
has now promulgated into 21 international statements, whether it’s the World Health
Organization, American Heart Association, American College of Cardiology – Institute
of medicine says eat as little saturated fat as possible – they couldn’t be more clear,
and these are high brow.” “Okay but why did they come to the conclusion
that saturated fat-” Then he explains that this is because
・Basic science shows that when you eat foods rich in saturated fat – which is called: “meat,
cheese, eggs and such”, receptors on your liver for cholesterol goes down. This prevents
the cholesterol from getting into the liver so the cholesterol floats around in the blood
stream. “That’s the basic biochemistry. Then they
had epidemiology studies, flawed, perfect, it doesn’t matter, there were so many of
them.” “Then they did controlled trials – Clarke 1997, 395 – it’s called metabolic studies
– change the diet, see what happens. You add saturated fat, cholesterol skyrockets – on
average, not in a single person. Then there were many epidemiology studies that seemed
to support this point. ・Then there was a 1997 paper on 395 metabolic
ward experiments that showed that saturated fat increases cholesterol on average – not
in a single person. …It’s our microbiome… it’s our genetics – it would rise.” “And then finally, finally, they looked at
populations that live over 100 – these are called the pillars of longevity – they don’t
eat foods rich in saturated fat. They eat a lot of olive oil in Italy and Greece – they
eat almost no dietary fat in Okinawa Japan and they have the greatest longevity in the
world in 1970 – they eat almost no dietary fat, about 6 – 7%” In response, Kresser says “First of all,
everything we eat has all the fats in it… Does it make sense that you could eat mackeral
and you know the polyunsaturated fats in it are good for you but the saturated fat in
it is bad for you?“ “… and in fact, two tablespoons of olive oil has more saturated
fat than a 7 oz pork chop.” Actually this isn’t quite right as a 7oz pork chop will
give you 7g of saturated fat vs. 4g from two tablespoons of olive oil, but if Kresser had
compared by calories, Olive Oil would give you more a little bit more saturated fat. Also, let me comment on this idea that they
eat almost no dietary fat in Okinawa Japan. In Okinawan restaurants in Tokyo and Okinawa,
most of the dishes you see are …pork. Pork belly, pork ribs, pig innard soup, pig ears,
pig feet and so on. And if you go to the Okinawa prefectural website and click on “food culture,”
it says that “Ryukyu cuisine begins with pork and ends with pork.” Historically,
the pig population of Okinawa was very high, reaching 110,000 pigs – that is 1 pig for
every 6 people before World War 2. Tragically, the devastation of the war cut the Okinawan
population almost in half and destroyed most of their food supply. The pork population
was cut down almost 90% to just 14,000. You may have heard that the Okinawan has nearly
70% of calories coming from purple sweet potato and just 3% from saturated fat. But the survey
that found this was conducted in 1949, when people were still struggling to avoid starvation
in the aftermath of the war. However, just 14 years after the war, the Okinawan pig population
surpassed its previous high reaching 142,000 in 1960. Moving on, around the 45 minute mark, Kresser
references this paper by Zoe Harcombe that reviews meta-analyses of randomized controlled
trials before 1983, and says “No randomised controlled trial had tested government dietary
fat recommendations before their introduction,” it concludes that reducing blood cholesterol
“did not result in significant differences in CHD or all-cause mortality.” Randomized
controlled trials and their meta-analyses are widely regarded as a very strong piece
of evidence, especially in comparison to epidemiology studies. Meaning dietary recommendations to
limit saturated fat were introduced without proper evidence for them. So how did they stay on this topic for the
next hour? Well there were a couple reasons: Kresser early on pointed out that we should
be focused not on whether saturated fat increases cholesterol, but on whether saturated fat
actually directly increases heart disease or all cause mortality. “The other problem
is they were using cholesterol as a proxy marker – they weren’t looking at did people
eat saturated fat and die more, they looked at did saturated fat increase cholesterol?” However, Kresser at times was questioning
whether saturated fat increases cholesterol on average. This muddled his argument about
looking at end points, and the data seems to be on Kahn’s side here- “You add saturated
fat, cholesterol skyrockets on average, not in a single person.” as Chris Masterjohn points
out in his own analysis of this debate: “Kresser was mistaken to say that saturated
fat on average does not raise cholesterol levels. What you see on the screen is data
from the LA veterans administration hospital study. This is reflecting the main difference,
which is the difference between saturated fat on the top and polyunsaturated fat on
the bottom and over the course of 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7 years, right up until the study
was terminated, although the cholesterol levels changed over time, this big gap between the
two diets remained.” Also, throughout this section, Kresser brings
up several meta analyses of randomized controlled trials in favor of low carb diets, which are
expected to be higher in saturated fat, “there have been several metaanalyses now that have
looked at low carb diets and all of these meta analyses have found that low carb diets
are superior for glycemic control, for reducing insulin, for reducing triglycerides without
increasing cardiovascular risk markers – so now we’re talking about randomized controlled
trials which is the best form of evidence that we have and we’re not seeing any harm
from increased consumption of saturated fat.” In response to this it would have been a good
idea for Kahn to just point out that it would be too time consuming for them to sit down
and analyze these studies and move on. But, when asked to address or explain what is wrong
with these studies Kresser has brought up, Kahn dodged the question several times over
a period of about 50 minutes and Joe Rogan had to keep bringing the question back up. “Why are you dismissing this new evidence?”
“What is your response though to all these studies that he was citing?”
“These new studies that he’s showing, and we can go over them again, but you didn’t
address why- you did?” “get kids healthy-”
“Please, please, what is wrong with what he said?”
“What’s your take on what he said though?” “Well I don’t care honestly what he said,
I’ve got to go with the best science in the world because I deal with patients who have
serious disease…” “I think we should move on, but-”
“No we definitely shouldn’t because we’re not- we’re not really clearing this up. What
is he saying that’s wrong?” “Okay, the biochemistry that saturated fat
in your diet will lower the number of LDL receptors on your liver and your blood cholesterol
goes up. Then you get to epidemiology-” “Okay but do you understand that he’s, he’s
saying something totally different. You’re citing epidemiology studies-”
“Well I started with Biochemistry, then I went to epidemiology-”
“I want to know what’s wrong with what he said…”
“Because he’s not being broad with the science.” “Okay but what’s these studies that he’s talking
about.” “They’re pixel mentalities. Picking one…”
“I’m trying to boil this down – so what is your take on that? Without any references
to the past and people who lived in Mongolia that lived longer…”
“These are three disruptive randomized trials from 2010 on that questioned the relationship-”
“No, those are different trials, Joel. I’m not referring to Krause’s research or Chaudhry’s.”
“What is wrong with what he’s saying? “It takes a heretical conspiracy attitude
to say everybody’s got it wrong for 60 years. 21 international societies have it wrong – they
could…” “So he’s saying that the current science is
showing that there is no negative consequence of saturated fat.”
“That’s BS. That’s BS.” “So what is wrong with these studies that
he’s citing?” “I don’t know, I have not read every article
in the world, nor has Chris. There are three famous studies that I’ve read. Seri Torino
Chaudhry and DeSuza, those have been dissected, those are generally-”
“Those were not the ones that I cited anyways.” Joe Rogan’s constant challenging of Kahn
to address this question may be why some commenters felt Rogan was biased in the debate. But,
the same thing happened when Kresser made a mistake. He was wrong about the dietary
guidelines having changed their position on total fat intake in 2010, and Rogan challenged
Kresser multiple times to get this point addressed. “Is that a mistake, Chris?”
“It’s right here…” “Can we find it because these seems like a
major point of dispute.” “Lemme, can I stop you because I really think
we should clarify that.” “So what was it that you remembered from 2010
and did you remember it erroneously?” “Umm. Let’s see here.”
“Did you find out if you made an error on this 2010 requirement from the USDA?”
“So, I don’t have the full guidelines in front of me and I’m not sure what the language says
so I could have made an error, it’s possible.” Finally moving on, at the 1 hour 58 minute
mark they discuss the point that saturated fat combined with sugar is particularly bad.
In the context of a super low carb high fat ketogenic diet, dietary fat will actually
decrease blood levels of saturated fatty acids. On the other hand, refined carbohydrates will
increase them “You eat a lot of sugar, you activate another aging pathway called p-KRas.” Kahn also argues that meat inherently accelerates
the aging process due to its effects on MTOR and IGF-1, and he cites this paper by Morgan
Levine that shows that high animal protein intake increases cancer, overall mortality
and IGF-1 in people. Interestingly, the paper mentions that specifically, low protein may
be beneficial if you’re between the ages of 45 and 65, but if you’re over 65, low
protein can be detrimental. In any case, Dr. Kahn says that the methionine
in animal protein is what stimulates aging via the mTOR pathway, but as Chris Masterjohn
points out in his breakdown video “Methionine is an amino acid and you can divide
it into two components. One is there’s a basic skeleton of that amino acid and on top of
that, there’s what we call a methyl group. That methyl group is what supports an entire
system in the body called methylation that is important to all kinds of mental and physical
health.” for methionine to stimulate mTOR it needs
to donate a methyl group. So if you have too much methionine, you’d have too many methyl
groups and you could accelerate aging. But, we have an amino acid called glycine that
acts as a buffer for too many methyl groups. So if you’re getting methionine from muscle
meat, it’s not an issue if you’re eating other glycine rich parts of the animal like
connective tissue and skin, or drinking bone broth. The other worry about meat is homocysteine,
homocysteine is well known for its apparent contribution to heart disease. So, once methionine donates that methyl group,
it becomes homocysteine. But, In order to get rid of the homocysteine, you need all
the B vitamins. And… animal foods are quite high in B vitamins. Shifting topics, around the 2 hour 29 minute
mark, Dr. Kahn brings up TMAO: “TMAO. If you eat red meat which is rich in L-Carnitine,
another amino acid, if you eat eggs that’s rich in choline, those directly led your liver
to create TMAO. What does TMAO do? It stuns your HDL so it doesn’t reverse cholesterol
transport, it causes LDL to enter the cell wall to create foam cells, macrophages, plaque
and you get a heart attack.” “Actually Joel, what in the diet increases
TMAO orders of magnitude more- “-fish! Because fish has it right in there
fish flesh along with that mercury and their PCB’s and…”
“-What would most doctors and researchers say about fish consumption and cardiovascular
disease and mortality. There are few things that are associated with a greater decrease
in cardiovascular disease risk than fish consumption. And… TMAO, if you look at a graph – the
increase in TMAO from eggs, beef, cheese, milk, clams and then look at cod and halibut.
Cod and halibut are increasing TMAO, as I said, orders of magnitude more than beef or
eggs. You can’t even see eggs and beef there and fish consumption, I think almost every
public health authority would recommend-would agree with this is reducing the risk of heart
disease and mortality so the other thing about TMAO to know is that certain types of gut
bacteria metabolize choline and carnitine into TMAO whereas others don’t. A lot of scientists
have speculated that high TMAO levels are essentially a result of a disrupted gut microbiome.
There’s studies showing that rifaxamin which is an antibiotic that treats bacterial overgrowth
in the small intestine reduces serum TMAO levels. Which suggests that it’s mediated
by the gut microbiome.” The conversation on TMAO eventually fizzled
out and later on Kahn and Kresser agreed that you should up your veggies in any case. Kresser
said your plate should be ⅔ to ¾ plants. Around the 3 hour 4 minute mark, Joe Rogan
asked Kresser what the benefit is of “putting that one quarter of your plate – putting animal
protein.” “There are lots of benefits, animal protein is more nutrient dense in essential
nutrients – animal foods are higher in B12, bioavailable Zinc, Iron, Calcium, Choline,
Taurine, Creatine and not just higher in terms of the actual amounts, but higher in the amount
that you absorb and that’s a very key point.”  Joe Rogan then asks what would be negative
about removing the animal products from that one quarter of your plate. Kresser begins
by explaining you would end up lacking B12, and he says that more important than looking
at what is theoretically possible, that is, instead of seeing whether it’s possible
fill in this B12 lack with supplements, what’s important is checking the actual incidence
of deficiencies. “for example, the average omnivore – the rate
of B12 depletion is 11% and then for vegetarians, it’s 77% and for vegans it’s 92% of depletion
which is the first stage – there’s four stages of B12 deficiency and that’s the first stage.” As was discussed earlier in the video, you
want to keep homocysteine down and you need B vitamins like B12 to do that. This study
also found that 16% of the omnivores, 38% of the vegetarians and 67% of the vegans had
high homocysteine levels. “A lot of people turn to a no animal product
diet to improve their cardiovascular health and yet you’re seeing much higher rates of
homocysteine like the average in vegans is 16, which is clearly associated with increased
risk of not only cardiovascular disease but also dementia and alzheimer’s.” This a point where Kahn seemed to agree with
Kresser. “Chris I couldn’t agree more, I’ve written many articles- ‘don’t be
a dumb vegan’… and I don’t mean to offend but y’know… We are prone to have a few holes
in the wall that an intelligent person knows how to plug. It’s Vitamin D, it’s DHA, B12, Iodine, Taurine,
Vanadium, Chromium, I just got those, that’s what I do every other day. I’m totally complete.” “But let’s look at things like Calcium, Iron,
Zinc, Choline, Creatine, Retinol which is preformed Vitamin A, let’s look at EPA and
DHA. All of these are shown to be lower in vegetarians and vegans than they are in omnivores.” Next, Kresser talks about whether or not it’s
a good idea to rely on supplements. “Yes, you can supplement, but it just- do
the supplements have the same effect? Like look at calcium. Dietary calcium has inversely
related to heart disease and kidney stones. But when you look at studies on calcium supplements,
the opposite is true. Calcium supplements are associated with an increase in heart disease
and an increase in kidney stones. But the theory is that supplemental calcium is not
the same as dietary calcium – you get a large bolus of calcium that goes into your blood
all at once and then it can get into the soft tissues – which, Joel will tell you, is not
good for your heart health. My point is that supplements don’t always affect the body in
the same way…. I just think it’s better to get nutrients from food if you can because
that’s the way we’ve been getting them for millions of years, y’know. “Just to show how nutrient dense organ meats
and shellfish are: You could eat 1 clam, 1 oyster, and four grams of liver a day and
you would completely meet your needs for B12, Zinc, Copper, Choline and many other nutrients
with no other consumption of animal foods.” Moving onto the 3 hour 19 minute mark, they
briefly talk about the carnivore diet. “I am baffled by this carnivore diet.” Dr. Kahn and Joe Rogan talk about how Vitamin
C may not be an issue because glucose competes with vitamin C for uptake, so the little Vitamin
C these carnivore people get from organ meats and muscle meat could be sufficient because
they use it very efficiently. Kresser has a theory that the people benefitting from
this are experiencing something like a gut rest. “Meat is absorbed very high up in the
digestive tract- when you only eat meat, it’s a low residue diet. And there’s nothing left
over to irritate or inflame the gut, my theory is a lot of people who are benefitting from
this have a really disrupted gut microbiome and the carnivore diet is essentially like
a gut rest or a fast, and so I don’t doubt that people are benefitting from it – the
question is what is the long term implication.” Other than that a big concern was how well
people will fare without phytonutrients and fiber. “Should we wrap this up? One thing that we
came to a really solid conclusion is the standard american diet sucks.” All in all both sides had interesting points
to contribute to the debate and the video is worth watching or listening to, though
I’d recommend to start watching from about the two hour mark as I felt the second half
was more productive and interesting.


  1. Scott Campbell November 4, 2019 at 3:34 pm

    At the 16:50 mark you put up a chart for "Liver," to show it's high B vitamin content, but c'mon, who eats liver these days? When I was growing up my Mother periodically fed us liver to ensure we got our B-12, but I can't tell you the last time I ANYONE server liver on any occasion. Pretty much everyone hates the stuff. So it's a little bit shady to include it in the discussion.

  2. Duyen Duyen Trinh November 4, 2019 at 9:10 pm

    I' m on eat a little bit of everything diet .

  3. Motorsports F1 MotoGP November 5, 2019 at 2:34 pm

    Honestly you should do a video on the old school Italian diet, science says they live the longest and I can almost guarantee it comes down to their diet🤷‍♀️ 🤷‍♂️

  4. s baxter November 7, 2019 at 2:36 am

    * cooked food omnivores

  5. Mr. Orange November 7, 2019 at 8:45 pm

    There are a lot of reasons for all this confusion, but I suspect a big one has to do with money, like all things.
    There is no money to be made from people adopting simple, healthy diets, from both the food and the health/pharma industry. A lot of the work is automatically done for them, sugar is addicting and meat tastes better than beans and broccoli. They fill in the rest by causing confusion and contradiction with advertisements and "studies" they fund themselves.

  6. The Beautiful Ones November 8, 2019 at 9:16 am

    As I watch this I am eating a thick slice of cheddar spread with about 1cm of butter.

    Vegans are sick.

  7. Neighbor Steffen November 9, 2019 at 4:33 am

    you can do this in a nano machine micro like state and and the end result would be the same, eating meat and vegies is healthy, stay avay from sugar, bread, and al the stuff you realy know is toxic for you.

  8. John Wallace November 9, 2019 at 6:05 am

    the world needs more Joe Rogans

  9. ProPaleo November 9, 2019 at 11:01 am

    To be effective you can only have ONE main priority and for influential vegans that main priority is saving animals from harm. I don’t know about you but if my main priority is getting as healthy as possible I’d rather follow the people who have that as their main objective.

  10. TheTurnz November 9, 2019 at 11:59 am

    1:23 “and a carefully Whole Foods diet that is packed with avocados and coconut oil.” Whole food, meaning to not be refined or processed, so coconut oil isn’t on a Whole Foods diet, so not comparable. Also nice video I agree with this one.

  11. Robert Robertson November 9, 2019 at 2:32 pm

    I'm now a vegi-clam-oyster-liver-terian.

  12. Paul Gloor November 9, 2019 at 10:09 pm

    The carnivore diet sounds quite a bit like what a person would find in pretty much any coastal diet. Heavy in sea/lake/river sourced food and protein as well as birds and many land mammals which gravitate towards bodies of water. It sounds like the diet would also rely heavily on the processing and consumption of the majority of any animal harvested, from organ meats to brains and even bones.
    Evolutionarily speaking, there's quite a bit of evidence that suggests early humans followed and and established many early and thriving settlements near bodies of water most likely because it provided a rich source of food and acted as a transportation corridor.

  13. Paul Gloor November 9, 2019 at 10:09 pm

    The carnivore diet sounds quite a bit like what a person would find in pretty much any coastal diet. Heavy in sea/lake/river sourced food and protein as well as birds and many land mammals which gravitate towards bodies of water. It sounds like the diet would also rely heavily on the processing and consumption of the majority of any animal harvested, from organ meats to brains and even bones.
    Evolutionarily speaking, there's quite a bit of evidence that suggests early humans followed and and established many early and thriving settlements near bodies of water most likely because it provided a rich source of food and acted as a transportation corridor.

  14. White Castle November 11, 2019 at 8:34 am

    I am 90% vegetarian, still eat farm eggs, fish I catch and venison occasionally. What I've learned Moderation works best for me. Your manliness increases when you eat healthy, less processed foods and stay active.

  15. Paula Samec November 11, 2019 at 9:47 am

    Cholesterol does NOT cause CVD, LDL canNOT get between the tight junctions in the endothelium, AND people with higher cholesterol live LONGER, so this discussion about cholesterol is beyond the point!

  16. Ttttheo The Lord of Lizards November 11, 2019 at 7:55 pm

    Which one of them is breathing so damn hard?

  17. Chichi Vidya November 11, 2019 at 10:11 pm

    It would have probably made it too dense, but i wish they talked also about fasting/intermitent fasting

  18. Warren Malone November 15, 2019 at 5:17 pm

    These floating/moving text are driving me nuts

  19. Kwan Lek November 16, 2019 at 8:54 am

    Still quoting an election keys? Not worth of my time!,

  20. Mills Jones November 17, 2019 at 1:55 am

    And yet my grandmother eats whatever she wants, drinks wine and bourbon multiple times a week, is a healthy weight and is currently thriving at 98

  21. Bobby Lee November 19, 2019 at 11:12 am

    For the vast history of human diet, we were turning over rocks and grabbing what couldn’t get away!😋

  22. Buck Buckleyson November 19, 2019 at 12:57 pm

    unfortunately neither of these two should call themselves scientists, epidemiology is art not science

  23. Jessica Barboza November 19, 2019 at 4:18 pm

    It is well documented that eating too much muscle meat (methionine) without balancing out with glycine found in those organ meats, skin, and collagen can contribute to chronic issues. Which makes sense from an evolutionary biology standpoint because we did not used to have access to as much muscle meat as we have today. I think this is really important for those on keto to note to get the best health outcomes from the diet.

  24. siemniak November 20, 2019 at 12:53 am

    So basically you still do not know anything.

  25. Mary Poole November 21, 2019 at 12:08 pm

    What we need to do is –Get the Corrupt Monsanto CAFO Farming OUT–We need Biodynamic Regenerative Farming—Monsanto/Bayer Toxic Roundup such as DDT–agent orange–atrazine—glyphosate etc.—go beyond organic—go beyond gluten free—go beyond GMO free—Join the Glyphosate Residue Free Project—

  26. Mary Poole November 21, 2019 at 12:09 pm

    using coconut oil and MCT oil for Deabetes///Dementia//Alzheimers etc. by Dr.Mary Newport—

  27. Mary Poole November 21, 2019 at 12:13 pm

    We need cholesterol—what we do not need is small dense LDL-Lipoprotein—-I have calcified aorta–calcified areteries—I now take K2-7—–I also drink RAW A2 Milk–Not pasteurized/homogenized A2 Milk—Definately Not A1 Milk with the dangerous opioid BCM-7—-!!!

  28. Abdelmelik Farooq Alwahid November 22, 2019 at 12:03 am

    Eat more veggies. No one can argue that part.

    What ratio of meat is up to you.

  29. Juan Garcia De Ortega November 22, 2019 at 7:13 am

    I know I get sick to my stomach if I don't add a vegetable to whatever I eat.

  30. Robin Jaensch November 27, 2019 at 12:03 pm

    could you please break down the "game changer" documentation on Netflix

  31. P S November 28, 2019 at 2:55 am

    I'm half Vegan and half Carnivore, I think it's called the caveman diet. 🤷‍♂️

  32. Pony Chaser November 28, 2019 at 12:15 pm

    What I've learned living on a plant based diet for years now is that every time I go back to meat and dairy my LDL level raises as does my blood pressure. So I have to conclude meat and dairy are not healthy for me.

  33. Bonnie Morris November 28, 2019 at 4:09 pm

    I think everyone will find data that supports the diet they like and negative data to support the diets they don't like. Eat what you enjoy. Bottom lines is everyone dies.

  34. D.E.B. B November 28, 2019 at 5:04 pm

    The cholesterol scare is all due to Ancel Keyes 7 countries study, which, was Keyes picking ONLY the countries out of the original 21, that showed him what he wanted to prove. The other countries DID NOT show the heart disease problems related to cholesterol that he wanted to prove.

  35. Ihrab Mustafar November 28, 2019 at 7:15 pm

    Been Vegan for 2 months. Considered myself already healthy before just by not eating processed foods, not drinking and not smoking. Here's what happened with nothing but a change in diet: my complexion is more even and my skin is smoother. My eyes are brighter and more vivid. Hair is glossier. I have more energy to exercise. No more acne. I feel lighter even though I gained 3 kilos. My dark circles are gone. I sleep better. I 100% believe I've made the right choice

  36. Geoff November 29, 2019 at 3:31 am

    Vegans are liars and mentally ill.

  37. Geoff November 29, 2019 at 3:33 am

    Almost AA plants contain toxins., No mention

  38. Geoff November 29, 2019 at 3:34 am

    Kahn is the typical vegetarian liar

  39. Philip C November 29, 2019 at 2:19 pm

    I’m 94 and have been eating meat all my life. Enjoy life

  40. P Dubs November 29, 2019 at 10:28 pm

    "if we throw out Epidemiology, we basically are throwing out 80% of all nutritional science"….face the facts! your science is nothing more than pseudo science, so throw it the hell out already and stop lying to yourself and US ALL! its almost as if this was all done on purpose… bet your ass it was done on purpose.

  41. Jan-Martin Ulvåg November 30, 2019 at 5:59 pm

    Your work is so important.

  42. UIevo December 1, 2019 at 5:42 pm

    Joe needs to bring on Dr. Greger.

  43. Guido A secas December 3, 2019 at 1:54 pm

    B12 is produced by a bacteria in the soil. Because of industrial processes of keeping the food free of bacteria and harmful things the food loses almost all (if not all) of the B12. So the food either lacks of B12 or it's added to it later.

  44. GDSPD YYY December 4, 2019 at 5:17 pm

    16:00 22:44

  45. Simon Rogers December 5, 2019 at 3:35 am

    We didn't evolve to eat vegetables, as all vegetables are seasonal our species evolved with meat as a main.. vegetables on the other hand, have a fats called ldl which is a main contributor to heart disease.

  46. Karthic Ram Kanthimathinathan December 5, 2019 at 11:16 am

    I would suggest 'The Game Changers' and 'What the Health' documentaries to answer these questions. They answered clearly and in shorter time than 3 hours.

  47. Retekh Menheer December 5, 2019 at 11:40 pm

    Vegans can eat nutritional yeast for b12, thiamine, riboflavin, niacin, and vitamin B6.

  48. Mike Jones December 6, 2019 at 6:31 am

    Do the most recent Rogan game changers podcast

  49. Peter Pan December 8, 2019 at 2:25 am

    A meat base diet makes sense because humans evolved for millions of years eating meat.

  50. MerkinMuffly December 8, 2019 at 8:24 am

    You have to take K2 and D3 with your calcium or it will screw you up, but most nutrition minded people know this.

  51. Jordan Abraham December 8, 2019 at 11:50 pm

    Supplementary Calcium is actually Calcium Carbonate which is Limestone. Hence why Calcium supplements can cause Kidney stones and hardening of the arterial walls.

  52. Paul Pena December 11, 2019 at 10:57 am

    Listening to this debate made my head hurt. The show prep must have been brutal. Joe Rogan is super human.

  53. iMMORTAL l December 12, 2019 at 7:02 pm

    protien from animals and fats,fibers and carbs from plants is the right equation according to me.

  54. Boring Old White Guy December 14, 2019 at 9:44 am

    Nutrition science has become no different than sports or political affiliation in that it has essentially become people's religion. Irrespective of facts put in front of them they refuse to believe it because they "know" the truth and anyone speaking otherwise is a heretic and must be shunned. It's actually quite sad that people who are in charge of others' health can be so closed minded and look towards proving themselves right instead of just getting people healthy.

  55. Elizabeth Start December 15, 2019 at 1:16 am

    My mother in law ate 2 eggs every day. She was 87. She loved her sweets and fruits. She was slightly overweight, and a diabetic. But not a big woman. Loved soup. My husband and I spent 5 years learning to make her soups for her. Death came by stroke. Not heart disease.

  56. Gy Bx December 15, 2019 at 5:13 am

    I've always tried to follow the dietary advice of the most successful professional athletes.
    The food they use to achieve athletic success is the food I want to eat.

  57. Miss Who? December 15, 2019 at 3:03 pm

    Just look at the people that live the longest and copy what they eat.

  58. B P December 19, 2019 at 12:02 am

    If you want to shit like a mule, eat like a vegan. If you want easy and less frequent bowel movements with easy wipes, eat mostly meat. End of story.

  59. C. rose December 19, 2019 at 2:49 am

    Very good breakdown of the debate.

  60. Tyler MG / Tyler mega games December 27, 2019 at 12:55 pm

    Im omnivore (more meat)
    (More vitamins and nutrition)
    Many any others

  61. Bucket with a face on it December 28, 2019 at 9:34 pm

    There must of been sections of the human race thousands of year ago that only had access to animal produce and fish for many generations. Maybe some nuts and berries as well.

  62. David Price December 30, 2019 at 8:24 pm

    Human stomach acid Ph 1.5 to 3.5, same as dogs, cats, lions, tigers, and raptor birds. End of argument. Vegans will NEVER defeat the stomach acid FACTS.

  63. r s January 1, 2020 at 3:03 am

    so many variables , fasting . how food is cooked , sugar consumption , exercise .

  64. j n b January 1, 2020 at 6:45 am

    Maybe you can be healthy on either? Neither is perfect. It boils down to personal choice and whether you can maintain your health using the diet

  65. Marcos Noble January 2, 2020 at 4:20 am

    There's a new podcast for you to analise.

  66. Julian Felix January 6, 2020 at 6:10 am

    Baffled by the example of liver as a b12 supplement its almost never ever found in a western / European diet with most people consuming lean beef and chicken breast most often, and perhaps never having liver in a lifetime… why is this a valuable example?

  67. Edwin Becerra January 6, 2020 at 6:10 pm

    People open your eyes, dont be in denial and be open minded. You think eating meat thats has been injected with hormones and has been modified its healthy? The industry wants you to keep eating this so you go back to the doctor and keep taking your monthly $400 dollars pills and pay for your doctor's visit.

  68. Will H January 7, 2020 at 1:51 am

    Well humans are omnivores and it's not debatable. It's more complicated than that though because we invented fire so long ago and have been cooking food ever since. The truth is humans can survive on just about any diet, which one is best is up for debate. There's even evidence that carnivore diets can be better for people with immune disorders.

    What do I eat? Well my main Staples are beef, sweet potatoes, eggs and citrus fruits. I genuinely believe I can live healthier than the vast majority of the rest of the world eating literally just that. Actually I know I can because I do. Get your fat, get your protein, get your vitamins, get your minerals, and don't eat too much sugar. That's it, doesn't matter how you do it.

    Also if you're interested in longevity it's hard to argue against the evidence of low calorie diets. You eat less you live longer. Do you really want to put on an extra 5 years when you're a decrepit old fart.

  69. yvonne Mc Cullagh ward January 8, 2020 at 10:47 am

    Just watch 11 mins to 15 mins lol

  70. Xime C. R. January 10, 2020 at 5:59 am

    One thing that stood out to me is that it's implied the people in these studies keep true to their diets for years. What about people who constantly changes it? From an unhealthy mass produced food digestion to a veggie or a carnivore who changes to omnivore and then back again. What happens to a body whose diet is inconsistent for months or years?

  71. ubcroel January 10, 2020 at 10:19 pm

    So 80% of nutrition is severly flawed… but shouldn't be disregarded

  72. ubcroel January 10, 2020 at 10:28 pm

    Kahn is also a snake oilsman

  73. Diss & Dad January 11, 2020 at 10:46 pm

    Kresser was recently pretty much debunked by the "Game Changers" guy on Joe Rogan episode #1393

  74. dijin456 January 12, 2020 at 2:25 am

    There is no one right way..u have to figure it out ..

  75. Adam Bevan January 20, 2020 at 4:48 pm

    I know that you've tried to stay unbiased, but you've failed. It's clear that you eat meat, and you don't even round out 'what you have learned' which is the whole point of the channel! Are you going to eat more meat, less meat, change nothing about your diet? You've taught us nothing here. Dislike.

  76. drditup January 21, 2020 at 12:21 pm

    at 8:18 you show that japanese eat a lot of pork, but did the 100+year olds that they were talking about?

  77. lee boss January 22, 2020 at 5:39 pm

    Because there's nothing with cholesterol

  78. Tadiwa Makova January 27, 2020 at 5:50 pm

    I absolutely love this! I greatly enjoy arguing over anything and everything because I genuinely believe that that is the only way for us to arrive to the closest version of the truth that we can.

  79. Meysam Ghaderyan January 29, 2020 at 6:35 pm

    we gotta go with "science"? interesting statement fro a cardiologist. If your science was complete and on point, you would not have had this long debate. I don't know who goes to this guy to fix their heart LOL

  80. Sara D January 30, 2020 at 3:36 am

    Does anyone here think Dr. Joel Kahn sneaks some animal products into his diet?

  81. ed low January 30, 2020 at 6:08 am

    Keys and those who followed him killed millions of people.

  82. AestheticBiker82 January 31, 2020 at 1:46 am

    Veganism is an anti-human death cult masquerading as a social justice movement masquerading as a fad diet.

  83. Patrick Wise February 5, 2020 at 4:31 pm

    Kahn was repeatedly trying to avoid an argument. Kresser kept citing either chemistry or low-carb diets while ignoring the simple evidence.
    Neither of them brought up the simple evidence of human anatomy being NOTHING like a predators. We can't eat raw meat, our teeth are too weak to tear through flesh, our skin is too thin to engage in violence without serious injury. If we're omnivores, we're shitty ones.

  84. Deemension1 February 5, 2020 at 6:58 pm

    Veganism is slow suicide. No kidding.

  85. Bad.Neeners. Brown February 6, 2020 at 3:33 pm

    I don’t care what fat does to my heart. I’ve been on a low fat diet for the last 25 years. I’ve been starving and over weight the whole time. I finally decided to give up on dieting and just be fat bc I was tired of being hAngry and tired all the time. I started adding the highest quality fats possible. I feel full and satisfied. I have energy. And my excess weight is falling off. I’m pissed it took me this long to figure it out and I will NEVER go back.

  86. Truth Stalker February 6, 2020 at 11:15 pm

    Why is such a deep, meaningful discussion taking place in a weedhead's talk show?? 🤔

  87. J February 7, 2020 at 8:27 am

    It's my view. Only my view to this. You may like or dislike. It's on your own. Don't blame me if my view is ain't as yours. I don't care
    Cholesterol. It's major human beings killers, gets your veins plugged and you can get stroke later in years. You'll ask me, how is this even connected? Well… meat is high in cholesterol, as well as egg. So you can eat moderate amounts of meat per day, but then most likely it means if you eat 85 g of meat you can eat nothing else. I doubt it's how eating process should be commenced.
    Thus animal products seems to be is our species main killer nutrition comes out!

  88. Mr. Zardoz February 11, 2020 at 11:24 pm

    Now, imagine a totalitarian government telling you that you cant buy beef anymore because your unhealthy.

  89. Mr. Zardoz February 11, 2020 at 11:27 pm

    The best diet ANY dietitian can agree on is the NO PROCESSED FOOD DIET.

  90. Roy 1776 February 12, 2020 at 10:58 am

    Also cooking your meats on the grill is worse than smoking. Yes "Everything I love is killing me ."

  91. tezzo55 February 15, 2020 at 12:50 pm

    Here's the best dietary advice – DON'T TAKE BOOZE, u will live longer and better!

  92. Stratan T. February 15, 2020 at 9:43 pm

    When we started to eat meat. We evolved in the humans we are today. For exemple Australopithecus didn't eat meat and they went extinct. So let the vegans alone. That's just natural selection.

  93. DustyCowdog February 17, 2020 at 3:37 am

    What about Dr. Ken Berry and the carnivore diet?

  94. Mr. Yost February 19, 2020 at 3:41 am

    I just love it when people appeal to authority.

  95. Miloš Pavlović February 22, 2020 at 10:52 pm

    Great work man!

  96. J.B. Crouse February 23, 2020 at 3:05 pm

    In my opinion, The key to health and longevity will always come back to three things; fasting, moderation, and movement. All three as a way of life.
    Also another thing that may be of greater importance is faith in something bigger than yourself. My choice is Christianity, yours may be something else. The point I'm making is that we have to be able to realize that we are not in control of everything that goes on around us. Belief that we can lay down the things beyond our control is like removing a large weight. I guess what I'm saying is that no matter what you eat, stress will render it null and void. Mind, body, and spirit are all key to being totally healthy as we age.

  97. Francis Devine February 24, 2020 at 3:21 pm

    The word is MATHS.

  98. HempMasterNinja February 26, 2020 at 3:36 pm

    I object! : on what grounds? :it's devastating to my case!

  99. J-F Patenaude February 27, 2020 at 12:48 am

    Hello everybody. Simply wanted to say that I know the best diet around the world so far. It is the most enviromentally friendly, nutritious and delicious diet out there. It's simple, just eat what your territory has to offer. Can't stand people and so called expert preaching about a diet which is only possible in a highly globalised world.

  100. Comic Chaos February 27, 2020 at 2:51 am


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